Aussisteve - what's going on here ?

[Beeyar Wunby]

Thanks for that a/s. You've posted some great pics there.

We have a ruling that toilets don't need to be provided for a journey of less than an hour, so our new class 717 commuter stock for London currently being built STILL doesn't have toilets in the 21st century ! Wicked. People leave their cars behind and take the train in order to go out 'on the tiles', and yet on their journey home there's nowhere to relieve themselves. As you can imagine the train cleaners have a horrible job on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

Also there is no law that all trains must have a working Universal Access toilet (the big ones that take wheelchairs). This 'seems' to be in breach of the Disabled Disability Act, but it has not been taken through the courts yet - and when it does it'll take years before it becomes law.

And as someone who doesn't have a particularly big bladder, I really feel for passengers when they tell me all the toilets are broken on a train. Sometimes we are authorised to hold a train at a station whilst people take a wee break, but it must be embarrassing for them as everyone on the train is watching them. Somewhat degrading.

There just doesn't seem to be very good train toilet engineering. Possibly because there doesn't need to be.

Perhaps if TOCs were financially penalised if a train doesn't have toilets there would be an incentive to improve things ?

Just a thought.

BW

[aussiesteve]

Cooee BW,
I shall respond to yer latest posting afore I slams in me composition thumped out last nite here at home.
The QR loading gauge is restricted, more so than here in NSW, them Bananabenders being 3 foot 6 inch gauge.
I would also presume that the UK loading gauge might impose some width and height constraints.
Wheel chair access, while legislated, would cause some design problems in regard to cattle capacity.
QR emu trains, both suburban and interurban are generally 6 cars.
I don't know the cattle capacity.
But, disabled access dunnies do require some additional space.
Wheel chair aisle navigation would not generally be possible with standard 4 across the aisle seating in QR cars.
How ever, car end saloons can provide for wheel chair accommodation.
But, the specific saloon would need to be adjacent the next car featuring the disabled access dunny.
The Transport NSW regional omnibus services must now provide for wheel chair patronage.
This will sound very ignorant of me, but to facilitate such, three rows of seats, aka 6 patrons had to be removed.
This to provide for the wheel chair lift which is inset into the bus side.
With such omnibusses catering for 50 cattle originally, the payload is reduced by 6 to provide for 1 potential wheel chair patron.
These regional services being fully booked most of the time.
And, what of the omnibus dunny, if provided, such would not be disabled access.
To squeeze in a disabled dunny on such omnibusses, out would go more standard seats.
Suburban omnibus design today provides for disabled access by the kerbside front door floor lowering hydraulically.
This is not possible on long haul omnibusses due to the baggage area underneath and internal steps from the doorway.
Naturally the QR bad press has occurred on the approach to the Commonwealth Games.
It really is a catch 22 situation, design modern equipment for the maximum capacity, yet provide for disabled access.
Yes, yer UK suburban journey designation maximum of 1 hour is kinda sympatico with here.
Though, services which continue through smog hollow can account for much longer suburban journeys.
The run to or from Springwood on the Blue Mountains is 80 minutes roughly, hence regarded as an interurban and a dunny is necessary.
Yes, here our cleaners do likewise cop a nasty time of it on saturday and sunday mornings.
Back in the good ole days, both the doors and windows opened.
So, you can imagine what transpired on late niter suburban red rattler services.
Even during the day time, I have squizzed Mum holding toddler junior up to the window sill to relieve the pressure.
Unlucky be the patron riding in the seat behind, with wind pressure potentially returning the swash.
Steve.

[aussiesteve]

G'day BW and all,
I have been trawling through a myriad of Contract documents available at the Transport NSW web site.
Yes, today I was perched at the local library googling with the freebie www.
We must be at war, as much of the material has been redacted and censored with that big black pen.
Anyhoo, I have gleaned sufficient info to get a picture of the newbie interurban fleet being built by Hyundai Rotem.
The proposed car width is indeed Medium body emu being 10 foot, with car length of 67 feet approximately.
So, while shorter than current V set cars, the newbie cars are indeed wider.
The contract calls for two set formations to be supplied, Short set (4 cars) and Long set (6 cars).
These sets to combine to create two train formations during peak commuting periods.
A Short train will comprise two short sets, thereby 8 cars, and a Long train will comprise 10 cars.
A current 8 car V set being a length of 629 feet, the Long version of the newbie train will be 670 feet, approx.
Seating is via 4 across the aisle (2+2) in FIXED arrangement, aka no flip over seats.
I can imagine this facet going over like a Led Zeppelin with Mountains commuters forced to face each other.
A folding table will exist between each pair of facing seats.
An existing 8 car V setter can cram in 832 cattle perched in comfy leather, plus a small number of standees.
Though, I have squizzed heaps of standees crammed into every nook and cranny on the arvo Mount Vic job.
The newbie Long train will perch 820 cattle in face to face fixed seating, but with a whopping 410 standees.
You had better get to the station early and hope to snag a seat, 12 missing out compared to a V setter.
The Short train version will not require any platform stretching, however, the Long train version does.
Howsoever, current Mountains platforms are a variety of lengths.
Many platforms require cattle to detrain from the rear portion of an 8 car V setter.
The front portion hanging off the end of such platforms, the train stopping at appropriate car markers.
A facet of the newbie fleet will be individual locking of doors where cars are not positioned on platforms.
Currently, cattle could accidentally attempt to exit into the atmosphere from 8 car V sets.
BUT, fair dinkum, you would hafta be an idiot to not constumble the guards announcement prior to arrival.
Thusly, it is not programmed to lengthen many platforms to fit the newbie Long train.
Terminal and major platforms will need to be stretched to so encompass.
The current access ramp at Lithgow will be demolished to accommodate the stretching process.
OK, nobody dares use that ramp during winter due to potential ice.
And, most stations now possess lift access as well as stairs.
Due to the width of the newbie trains, track slewing aka re-alignment will be accomplished.
Where track slewing cannot be accomplished then the platform coping will need shaving.
Driver to all cattle, Please all lean to the left, the track ain't been slewed here yet.
The Ten Tunnels track will be slewed and walls NOTCHED to permit the wide cars to squeeze through.
Notching being removal of a course of bricks along the inward curved tunnel walls.
The newbie trains will be capable of 130 kph, but with a maximum potential of 160 kph.
WHERE the heck is it gunna do 160 kph ?
Only a brief section of the speedway in smog hollow is capable of 160 kph within the electrified network.
OK, 130 kph, yeh that is more possible at certain locations within the metrop.
BUT, with some all stopper squirt ahead of it doing a max of 115 kph, WHAT, is it gunna lift off and go over the top ?
The newbie trains will be capable of DOO (driver only operation).
Incab CCTV monitor screens will display the train side along platforms.
That camera had better hang out a long way on outward curved platforms for ten cars.
OOPs, I forgot to retract the camera, I'll pick it up when I come back tomorrow.
I snicker and scoff at the demand that the newbie train must possess a body counter dingus.
To count the number of cattle getting on and off.
Does this mean that the seats will be electrified ?
OOPs, forgot to unlock the front car doors, no wonder that the head count don't jive.
Ah well, they can continue to the next long platform and come back on the next service.
Sorry, but I am a cynic by nature.
I remember watching gob smacked at the antics of teenagers back in the 1970s red rattler days.
All doors flapping open in the breeze, kids would grab hold of the exterior handrails and jump out onto platforms.
The train not stopping at such platforms, they would run along while holding on, and then jump back in before the end of the platform.
Now in future, we will hafta lock doors so that idiots don't fall out at short length platforms.
AH, bring back the good ole days.
Steve.

[Beeyar Wunby]

Originally Posted by TRP

Hi BW.

Interesting, never heard of Networkers (class 465?) working down here (but then they wouldn't if they foul the platforms!) Was this a trial to try to use them on the Hastings lines? Anyway, probably at West St Leonards as this has platforms on a very tight curve, and until recent years had to have check rails due to the severity of the curve.

Hi Tony, this is going back a bit in time, so my memory may not be 100%.

Yes the Networkers never actually got there. Here's why. (You're probably well versed with the info here, but I've provided links for those who may not be).

My first driving job was at Misery Farm (aka Orpington) depot driving 465/6 s (linky here..Class 465) round and round and round South London. After I left Connex South Eastern, the units were given a much-needed traction package rebuild. They were originally meant exclusively for suburban work, but when the toiletless 376 units (Linky here...Class 376) were introduced to suburbia, it was decided that the 465/6s should work further afield.

To this end, they looked at the Hastings line (link here...Hastings line). According to legend, the original builders made a hash of the tunnels and extra brick linings had to be added for integrity. This messed up the loading gauge, and cause a legacy of 'slim trains' to be specially required for that line. Linky...Lovely old Hastings Thumpers

This in turn caused infrastructure to follow suit. And the net effect of that was that when they attempted to run a 465 gauging train down there, they very quickly found that the unit's step plates would be foul of the platform edges. Not that this came as any surprise to the railwaymen/women involved, but it had to be established officially.

The quickest solution was to deploy the 465s elsewhere, IIRC off to the Maidstone line and other places. And not spend any money.

However I believe that when the wider Electrostars came along to be used on Kent Coast & Sussex services, Nitwit Rule had to dip into their pockets and move the platform edges back to the gauge.

Anyhow, this is the 'Official Rumor'. If you know any real facts, you can probably set me right.

Best wishes, BW