Four ex SRA execs give Sydney Metro a critique

[Beeyar Wunby]

Hi aussiesteve

Yes, my comments were really meant for HS2 and other high-speed/intercity lines. Their trains stop for several minutes which makes it possible.

When I'm driving over commuter lines the aim is for 20 seconds as a 'door open time'. That's fine on the quieter outer stations or off-peak at the bigger ones, but it can be much longer.

And yes, there was a trial done quite a few decades ago on the Southern or South-Eastern region, can't remember which but I'm sure one of our historians can add some details.

To my mind it was a half-hearted attempt because that part of the country has the highest number of tunnels and bridges, built to the tightest of gauges.

So the train wasn't a true double-decker, more a deck-and-a-halfer. I always thought the photos reminded me of a toy dolls house, with people squashed in - smiling for the camera but looking rather uncomfortable.

I suspect the trial train was built with the best of intentions by its designers, but that the politics was the Bigwigs never really wanted it to happen.

And this is a backwards-looking country that resists change of any sort. I'm told that when the first double-decker busses were conceived in the UK there was a wave of opposition.

The more things change, the more they stay the same - as the French say.

BW.

[pre65]

Those Southern double deck coaches were of Bullied's design. I had not realised that they were only withdrawn from use in October 1971.

More info here for those interested.

http://bulleid4dddoubledeck.co.uk/history.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

[aussiesteve]

G'day Philip and BW,
A decker and a half, HA, makes me wonder.
I will be able to google again when the local library reopens the doors jan 29th.
So, have heaps of stuff to check out, including the Southern double deckers.
Me el cheapo home www access dwindles very fast if I attempt to google and snavel large files.
Our NSW best double deckers, the V set interurbans will be replaced in the not too distant future.
I will definitely miss them, when the modern things appear.
Steve.

[Beeyar Wunby]

It sounds very similar to the complaints that passengers have been making about the recent new 387 and 700 commuter trains.

Originally Posted by Bulleid 4-DD Double Deck EMU Supporters Group

Extra room inside was gained by having straight sides, slightly smaller diameter wheels and by making the seating cushions less padded (4" less padding then a 4-SUB). The seats were also narrower at 16.5" (normally 18.5").

The upper windows did not open as there was not sufficient clearance, thus the unit could get very hot in summer. Forced air ventilation was installed to try to get over this.

Nothing really changes.

BW

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by aussiesteve

G'day BW,
Double deckers are not really a solution when doorway access becomes a problem in regard to station dwell times. The NSW government in consort with the federal government here concocted what was a brilliant idea in the mid 1970s. Decentraliztion. Move people OUT of smog hollow Sydney to regional cities. Alas, the scheme faltered due to a number of reasons. I must say that I was most impressed with the French TGV double decker set that I rode in 2008. So, for long distance trains, yes, double deckers can be a viable concept. But, for suburban commuting, things just slow down too much. I thought that the UK did trail a double decker emu train some eons ago. But, found the door access problem caused delays due to added dwell times.
Steve.

Swiss railways are fanatical about punctuality and they don't appear to have a problem with double-deck commuter trains. Make the doors and stairways large enough and double-deck trains will have minimal effect on dwell times. The British trains that you refer to were built to our restricted loading gauge and were horrible congested things with lots of slam doors a far cry from the modern Double-deck trains that are used throughout Mainland Europe.

[aussiesteve]

G'day BW and John,
Those Bulleid "deckers and a half" do appear a tad awkward in design.
The Long Island Railroad (I think) designed a similar decker and a half to squeeze into their standard height cars.
Reminds me of the old double decker sheep wagons that we had here, coded GSV and BSV.
At least cattle were not cramed into double deckers, except for them in smog hollow.
We have not carted stock via rail here in NSW for many moons, though we continue to cart cattle in smog hollow.
The worst wagon to find at the rear of a WB train that you had to perform an air brake continuity on was a BCW.
You would grab the air hose and open the air tap then quickly let go of the hose and run.
Them cattle had a good aim out through the wagon end slats when startled by any loud noise.
Eventually return to close the air tap after them cattle had done their business.
You had to remember to cart your gloves with you to perform such duty.
We also had to hoof back when ever the train was stopped in a siding to check on them sheep or cattle.
Report to Train Control if any were down in the wagon thereby possibly crushed or suffocated by the others.
So, most of us were not too unhappy when we ceased carting stock via rail.
All of the original smog hollow double decker suburban emu sets had forced ventilation.
Some continue in service today.
Then in 1981 the first air con sets were introduced with the K set.
These had standard resistance traction and clasp brakes, but were heavier due to the motor alternators and aircon gear.
Hence they are more sluggish in acceleration and also braking.
But, the sealed window style implemented was altered to Beclawat style with sliding opening sections at the top.
Smog hollow cattle complained about sniffing the exhaust fumes of fellow cattle.
The windows were again changed to a style with inward opening top section.
But, then with all of these flip in window sections open, the air con system can't handle the temp difference and overloads.
During a peak hour squirt (suburban emu) ride last year in smog hollow, the guard made numerous admonishments.
Smog hollow cattle will not exercise to hoof along the platform, they congregate near the platform steps or seats.
During the 2000 Olympics scare approach period, seats were removed from distant parts of platforms.
With standees cluttering the train doorway sections, egress and ingress becomes a slow process.
For example an 8 car K set can seat 896 cattle plus cram in almost the same number of standees.
Hence not only the doorways can be congested, but also the aisleways further delaying egress and ingress.
As this supposed express service wandered westward-ho it got tardier after each stop.
By the time that I forced my way off at my destination, the train was 10 minutes late with 30 kms still to journey.
This would have delayed the following trains also, and so it goes on.
Doorways are 1.69 metres (5.5 feet) for internal sliding double doors, and slightly larger for outward swinging plug doors.
By contrast a Melbourne MET 6 car single decker emu can cart 580 seated and further 816 standees.
Three doorways exist for each MET car.
Thusly, smog hollow 8 car double decker with a total of 1750 cattle, versus 6 car MET single decker with 1396 cattle.
The Met train would have far less dwell times at stations, smog hollow 16 doors versus MET 18 doors.
OK, the Melbourne MET network would probable be less than half that of the smog hollow suburban network.
Solution, get half them smog hollow cattle OUT into the NSW country regional areas.
Yes, I was most impressed by the swish Swiss train services that I rode during 2008.
But, I didn't journey for over 90 kms and still find myself within the same megacity suburban region.
Those Swiss rail journeys starting in cities and then quickly escaping into the countryside.
As with here, there being greater distances between regional stations, train speed can be increased.
We call smog hollow suburban trains squirts because it be a squirt of power followed by a squirt of brakes.
Maybe we should get rid of the prehistoric overhead, and bung diesels up front and let the cattle ride the roofs.
I also didn't espy any graffiti in Switzerland, whereas graffiti exists everywhere in smog hollow.
The day that a herd of Swiss schoolbrats jumped onboard der zug, my expression must have changed.
But, to my surprise, yes they were kids, but they behaved themselves, mostly whispering when chatting.
Locals with whom I was seated must have noticed my change in expression.
After discussing the situation of kids behaving themselves and no graffiti, they commented; We love our country.
Enough said.
In smog hollow we now have so called Quiet cars on each train.
But, regardless, cattle continue to yell into their stinking mobile phones.
Most windows have graffiti tags scratched into the glass, and litter rolls around the floor.
Steve.

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by aussiesteve

...........
I also didn't espy any graffiti in Switzerland, whereas graffiti exists everywhere in smog hollow.
The day that a herd of Swiss schoolbrats jumped onboard der zug, my expression must have changed.
But, to my surprise, yes they were kids, but they behaved themselves, mostly whispering when chatting.
Locals with whom I was seated must have noticed my change in expression.
After discussing the situation of kids behaving themselves and no graffiti, they commented; We love our country.
Enough said.
....................

Hi Steve. You were lucky if you didn't come across any graffiti in Switzerland. Believe me, there is plenty of it, particularly on railway property.
Generally speaking Swiss kids do still tend to be better behaved than those in the UK (and obviously Oz) but I don't think it will be long before they bow down to the influences of the modern world.