British Train Timetables

[43006]

Hello one and all.

As I said in the "Say Hello" thread, my main interest with railways are their timetables, especially those relating to GNER, Hull Trains, GCR (whenever they decide to start operations), Virgin (VWC & VXC), MML and FGW. I'm concentrating on long distance routes, approximating to what used to be called the "InterCity Network" immediately before the TOCs took over. In Passenger Timetable (PTT) parlance, I'm looking at Tables 26, 51, 53, 65, some of 66, 125 and 135.

Before I veer off on another tangent, I've put this thread under "Passenger Operations and Observations", as it seems the most logical place to put it. However, if the moderators disagree, and want to move it elsewhere, please let me know, and we'll do something about it. I've also put something under the "Wanted" section, as I'm after specific information.

In my opinion, most of the timetables SUCK! My principle criticism is that they are inconsistant and irregular. I also reckon it is possible to increase the frequencies on most services. As an example, on Table 26, if you look at the train times from Edinburgh to Newcastle on a weekday afternoon, you'll see that there's a GNER train that leaves on the hour (1300, 1400, 1500, etc), BUT there are also VXC trains that leave at 1305, 1405, 1505 etc) Surely it is logical to have the VXC trains leaving at 30 minutes past the hour (or the GNER trains at 35 minutes past the hour). That way, you get a train every 30 mins, rather than 2 trains every hour, 5 minutes apart. Which would you prefer?

Also, another thing that bugs me are the irregular times that a train service calls. By this, I mean a service where trains leave at varying minutes past the hour. A good example are the departure times for northbound GNER trains at York. By my reckoning, they should arrive and depart at regular times past the hour. This is called CLOCKFACE TIMING, which should be endemic throughout the time table. There is a continental practice called TAKTFAHRPLAN, where trains, on different routes/services, arrive and depart the station at the same time. I don't think this is a good idea, as it means the station is packed one minute and totally empty for some time later.

What do you think? Discuss.

43006

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by 43006

........................ As an example, on Table 26, if you look at the train times from Edinburgh to Newcastle on a weekday afternoon, you'll see that there's a GNER train that leaves on the hour (1300, 1400, 1500, etc), BUT there are also VXC trains that leave at 1305, 1405, 1505 etc) Surely it is logical to have the VXC trains leaving at 30 minutes past the hour (or the GNER trains at 35 minutes past the hour). That way, you get a train every 30 mins, rather than 2 trains every hour, 5 minutes apart. Which would you prefer?

I don't think you can look at the Edinburgh - Newcastle route in isolation. The Virgin services depart at xx.05 so that they fit into the half-hourly NE-SW cross-country timetable from Newcastle via Leeds and Sheffield. If they departed from Edinburgh at any other time it would throw the main part of Virgins timetable south of Newcastle into disarray.
I agree that it would be nice to have a half-hourly service between Edinburgh and Newcastle but I think that we should be looking at GNER to provide it using the xx.30 path that they use for their infrequent North of Scotland - Kings Cross services.

Originally Posted by 43006

.................There is a continental practice called TAKTFAHRPLAN, where trains, on different routes/services, arrive and depart the station at the same time. I don't think this is a good idea, as it means the station is packed one minute and totally empty for some time later..................

I don't think a Taktfahrplan would work in the U.K. because it requires equally spaced network hubs to be set up with trains taking similar times to pass between them. This quite often means that trains take slightly longer than is really neccesary to cover a particular distance in order to keep the overall system running smoothly and reliably. In the U.K. we have a different mentality. Connecting with other services isn't a high priority and trains usually travel as quickly as possible between two points even if it means depositing a customer at a particular station ages before his/her onward connection. Stations using the Taktfahrplan have very busy periods because that is when the majority of the trains arrive and depart in order to provide optimum connections. Obviously the station needs to be designed to cope with the large number of people changing trains.

[43006]

Swiss

The Edinburgh to Newcastle timetable I quoted was intended purely as an example - nothing more. I know that IF I had re-timed the XX.05, there would have been a considerable knock-on effect between Newcastle and Birmingham and, almost certainly, beyond. I have a way round that, but it's a bit radical, when you compare it to the PTT. The point of my first post on this thread was to try and explain what I was trying to do. I don't propose modifying the present PTT, I'm building it up from scratch!
I've taken the liberty of sending a you document via Private Message which shows what I'm trying to do.
I take it from your user name that you are an afcionado of the railways of Switzerland. It's just that I'm spending a weeks holiday near Interlaken, and one of the trips planned is up the Jungfraujoch railway!

43006

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by 43006

Swiss

The Edinburgh to Newcastle timetable I quoted was intended purely as an example - nothing more. I know that IF I had re-timed the XX.05, there would have been a considerable knock-on effect between Newcastle and Birmingham and, almost certainly, beyond. I have a way round that, but it's a bit radical, when you compare it to the PTT. The point of my first post on this thread was to try and explain what I was trying to do. I don't propose modifying the present PTT, I'm building it up from scratch!
I've taken the liberty of sending a you document via Private Message which shows what I'm trying to do.

Sorry for the misunderstanding but it at least it got the discussion under way. Look forward to seeing your plans.

Originally Posted by 43006

I take it from your user name that you are an afcionado of the railways of Switzerland. It's just that I'm spending a weeks holiday near Interlaken, and one of the trips planned is up the Jungfraujoch railway!
43006

I'm impressed. You must be well off if you can afford a trip up the Jungfrau

[hstudent]

I know the Transpennine Express timetable used to be inconsistent, the trains leaving Liverpool Lime Street used to alternate between terminating at Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Sunderland. When First took over they made all trains from Liverpool go to Scarborough.

The trains leaving Manchester Piccadilly for Chester are similar leave at 15 and 24 minutes past the hour, but there are reasons for this such as Manchester to Chester via Newton-le-Willows trains have to co-ordinated with Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows trains, as well as London to North Wales trains. Also the Chester to Manchester via Altrincham trains take longer so if they were co-ordinated at Manchester, they may not be at Chester.

[martin adamson]

One thing I like about the current timetable is the choice on some core routes e.g. Virgin services to London Euston from Manchester, theres one almost every 15 minutes in the morning. I also like the VT mega fast ones that go pratcially non stop, there are ones from Manchester and Glasgow anyway that do that.

I think GNER are great however with the concistent new Leeds - London timetable. I am thinking of going on one next month, just not sure which one to pick. More likely to go for an HST though.

[dlh1983]

Transpennine Express are another example. There's a train every 15 minutes between Manchester-Huddersfield and Leeds but as one train goes on to Hull and the rest go on to York, it results in 3 trains per hour between Manchester, Huddersfield and York timetabled so there 15 minutes between some trains and 30 between others.

[43006]

Originally Posted by David A Hicks

I think GNER are great, with the consistant new Leeds - London timetable. I am thinking of going on one next month, just not sure which one to pick. More likely to go for an HST though. (Note - spelling & punctuation corrected by 43006. For this service, there is no charge! )

Actually, with the introduction of the new titmetable in May, there has been quite an improvement in services between KX and Leeds. Before, the average time between trains was 39.5 minutes. Now it's 33.6 - an increase of about 15%, which is pretty good. Not sure if it's justified, though.

43006

[hstudent]

Manchester Oxford Rd to Stockport seems to have the worse. There are three trains per hour that do that journey. Trains are at xx.27, xx.31 and xx.38.

As one of them is the Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich service I’m aware it has to be coordinated with both the Liverpool to Scarborough service and the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service.

Also one of them is Blackpool North to Buxton service which is coordinated at Blackpool with the Manchester Airport service, but is not coordinated at Manchester Piccadilly.

However, the other is a Deansgate to Macclesfield service (the xx.27), there appears to be no obvious reason why it can’t run 15 minutes earlier.