Designs for diesel trains

[hstudent]

Can anyone explain why First Group designed 175s and 185s when neither seem to have advantages over 170s?

They all have a top speed of 100mph. Using TP Express' diagrams of 170s and 185s a driving coach without a first class section has practically the same number of seats (62 on a 170, 64 on a 185)

I've only been on 170s operated by Central Trains, but I personally found those ones more comfortable than 175s or 185s.

Also there were problems with 185s on the Leeds-Hull line, in that they were having to run at 70mph rather than 90mph due to their weight, which was one reason why Transpennine Express opted to use 170s on that route.

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by hstudent

Can anyone explain why First Group designed 175s and 185s when neither seem to have advantages over 170s? ..............................

No matter what they would have us believe, I doubt if First Group really had much say in the design of the 175's or 185's. It is more likely that Alstom and Siemens presented them with train designs that met their basic requirements and First were only allowed to make small changes.
Manufacturers have always had their own ideas as to what constitutes a good train and in this case it looks like the Adtranz/Bombardier product was the best.

[Foghut]

Whatever First group chose, you can bet it will be profitable. (And I'm not being bitchy now, I really do think that they know how to make money....which is why I'm graciously partaking in their share offer )

[John_142]

Yes they do they do rub good services and don't run daft thingss like Local Stopping services to Huddersfeild etc from Liverpool.

I know First Group of old and there policy is if it doesent make a proffit scrap it.

For which i admire the same with ARRIVA and Stagecoach both give value for money.

Altogh a First Group conductor told me i couldent sit in 1st class on a 185 between Hunts Cross and Lime St when the majority of STD seats where full.

[Foghut]

Originally Posted by John_142

Altogh a First Group conductor told me i couldent sit in 1st class on a 185 between Hunts Cross and Lime St when the majority of STD seats where full.

I was talking to a guy from Retail about thus the other day. Strictly speaking you have no rights to sit in First class, even if every standard seat is taken. It is purely up to the discretion of the conductor whether he choses to give you permission - unless you're pregnant, in which case you're covered by European law and can apply for a free upgrade for the duration of the term.

Having said that, I'd always appeal politely to the conductor to let me have a seat, on the understanding that I'd give it up immediately if a First class passenger joined the train later and didn't have a seat.

[Gandalf]

Some years ago,
Rather more than a few really, we went to Berwick from Peterborough on the 'Boots' ticket armed with three children. We got on the train OK but soon found that the particular seats allocated had in fact been double booked so they had already been filled at Stevenage. The conductor was very nice and took us into the First Class seats so we travelled in comfort all the way North. When tickets were checked by an inspector out conductor had already explained the problem so we had a good journey. However before we reached Berwick everything ground to a halt and as far as the eye could see were high speed trains waiting patiently to be let loose again. It turned out that when the conductor came into the First Class compartment he told us that we were to be delayed because of a broken rail. Not wanting to miss the opportunity of something a bit different I asked if we could go and see the engines since having worked with diesel engines I was interested in different types. This unusual request was considered for a few moment before he agreed and all in our coach were invited into the inner sanctum with most sticking fingers into their ears. Later a pleasant day was spent in Berwick.
The return journey was just as interesting. This time we had seats just behind the people who we had been double booked with who were not pleased at being cramped up on their outward journey while we sat back in relative luxury. This time we had to change trains at Newcastle not that ours had any problems but because the one in front was losing time due to some footie supporters who were getting a bit out of hand and had caused stops to be made on the way down from Edinburgh for the more unruly to be evicted by burly Transport Policemen. After changing trains we did not have seats anymore so it was a case of sitting on one and defending our right to sit down. Before we had reached Newark the bar was dry and the sporting gentlemen were after the conductors blood so he locked himself in his office and by some means arrasnged for the train to be met at Newark by a squad of the heaviest that could be found. After the vans drove away bulging with the riotous assmbly we got going again but now had lost our path completely and the main line South was closed for maintainance work so we were diverted via Lincoln and arrived back in Peterborough some 4 houirs later than expected. For us it was a great journey as we each rode for 300 plus miles at a cost of less than a single ticket so two adults and three children eventually arrived back home tired, hungry but had a great experience from our magical mystery tour. We used those Boots ticket three more time with Edinburgh being the destination in easch case but never went First Class again apart from anther outing the Edinburgh on a MerryMaker excursion when we went for £15 each first class.
Those were the days.
John (G)
PS It may have been Doncaster we diverted and rejoined at Newark but it was 20 years ago and memories do get a bit confused.

[tkboomer2]

Originally Posted by swisstrains

No matter what they would have us believe, I doubt if First Group really had much say in the design of the 175's or 185's. It is more likely that Alstom and Siemens presented them with train designs that met their basic requirements and First were only allowed to make small changes.

First probably just decide on the seat covers. (Northern's 323s and ATW's 175s that used to belong to First North Western have the purple seat covers that you see on most First buses.)

350s are practically an electric version of 185s (identical seats, doors, automated PA systems and destination displays) Yet 350s were built for Central Trains and Silverlink by Siemens.
The most noticeable difference between 185s and 350s (apart from one's electric amd one's diesel) is that 350s have four coaches with first class in the middle, while 185s currently have three coaches with first class at the front or back.

[martin adamson]

I would have thought that with the 185, First TPX will have explained to Siemens what they were looking for in terms of unit (has to be good accelerator and good when it comes to hills) and Siemens take it from there. Then once finished First Group add those seat covers and livery.

[John_142]

The 185's should have had end gangways like the 350's makes life easier for the condutcors to check tickets and life hardwer for those fare dodgers.